On the Rapture: Let’s Not Get Carried Away

Many Christians who believe these are the last days view the events taking place in the world as imminent signs of a long awaited event wherein Messiah will make a preliminary appearance, to believers only, and remove them out of the Earth prior to tribulation.

This event called the “rapture” is possibly one of the most hotly debated doctrines in Christianity.

All doctrine learned of church leaders and denominations aside, it is not unimportant that we examine what scripture supports exist for or against an occurrence such as this.

If error exists in a believer’s judgment concerning the rapture, there is the real danger of being set up for serious deception regarding the end times in general.

Knowing that this time is described in terms of the sheer magnitude of deceptions which will ensnare the inhabitants of Earth, it is reasonable that such a dramatic event, which is so debated as the rapture of all believers, would play a central role in that one way or the other.

Should a rapture occur, the danger for those who were never looking for one would, hypothetically, be that any left behind would not, as a consequence, repent of what had disqualified them for it in the first place.

Should no rapture be forthcoming, the danger would be that those expecting one would lose faith as they began to experience the distress of tribulation events… or they would be easily deluded by a staged event meant to mimic a rapture.

There is probably no one on Earth, believer or otherwise, who would not be more than happy to be spared a period of time in the world that was matchless in its upheaval and suffering.

To be taken away from it all and transported to a place of safety and peace is an incredibly attractive idea. For many Christians, the idea of our Heavenly Father allowing His people to suffer along with the rest of the world is unthinkable.

This is the root of where a strong and nearly unmovable conviction for the doctrine of rapture originates. We believe in an Elohim of mercy and therefor it seems altogether unmerciful for there not to be a rapture to spare Christians the tribulation.

We can not let that be our reason, though.

Such a conclusion is drawn out of fear of facing such a horrific trial, and out of a sense of entitlement as a believer to be assured comfort rather than adversity.

A doctrine that we hold as truth can’t be built upon the sandy soil of perception and feeling. It must stand or fall on the rock foundation of His word only, regardless of how we end up liking or disliking the outcome.

The word “rapture” itself is a concern.

Often those who argue against the doctrine of rapture note, as support for their position, that the word is not anywhere in scripture.

That’s not my argument, as I take it as a fairly weak argument at best. The debate is not over a term, but over a concept that is simply summed up in a word.

The question is whether or not the concept is in scripture.

My concern with the word chosen to describe the concept is in the literal meaning of that word. Rapture… does not sum up a lot of very Christian ideas in its definition.

rap·ture:

1. the state of mind resulting from feelings of high emotion; joyous ecstasy 

2. (often plural) an expression of ecstatic joy

3. the act of transporting a person from one sphere of existence to another, esp from earth to heaven

(tr) Archaic or literary to entrance; enrapture 

[from Medieval Latin raptura, from Latin raptus rapt1]

Feelings of high emotions… ecstasy. Every temptation and deception of Satan has always targeted a manipulation of emotions. The ability to create states of pointless euphoria has always been the lure of every sinful act.

By becoming “enraptured”, we’re deceived by and addicted to sin. In essence, to be raptured is literally to “get carried away”.

If that seems much too critical of a mere word which is used to describe an event of being taken away from the suffering of the tribulation… then readers are free to ignore it, but lets examine the definition by which it is defined as doctrine.

“the act of transporting a person from one sphere of existence to another, esp from earth to heaven.”

By all reason… we are to understand this as believers not dying, but being given incorruptible bodies and being taken from Earth into Heaven.

Likewise, the dead who believed on Messiah are also to be returned to their bodies and taken up Bodily with those who were still living.

Clearly all believers taken in the rapture are removed in physical form… not as spirits, yet they are removed to Heaven… a place or state/place understood by most Christians to be a Spiritual abode.

To what dimension or realm do these believers get raptured to where physicality in a human body is sustainable?

That is not a question to discredit the idea of physical locations in Heaven… but one to galvanize some thought on the condition of the resurrected, or perfected, human state which is particularly designed to be sustained in a future perfected Earth.

“Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no more sea.

Then I, Yahuchanan, saw the sacred city, New Yeruwshalaim, coming down out of heaven from Yahuwah, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold! The tent of Yahuwah is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. 

Yahuwah Himself will be with them and be their ‘Eloah.”

- Revelation 21:1-3

The origin of the doctrine of the rapture… (note: the origin of the Doctrine, not the Word) dates back only to around the early 1700′s. It was supported and preached by Cotton Mather who is also notable as being an integral participant in the Salem Witch Trials.

This idea was picked up and popularized later by other protestant pastors… particularly Edward Irving who preached a twofold return of Messiah such as many believers accept today.

The doctrine of the rapture is a fairly recent one, and does not date to the original church in the first centuries after Messiah came.

All these points aside now… here are the verses which are quoted in support of the rapture:

“For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Master will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For the Master Himself will descend from the sky with a shout, with the voice of a high messenger, and with the trumpet of Yahuwah, and the dead in the Anointed will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air.

And thus we shall always be with the Master.”

- 1 Thessalonians 4: 15-17

The words “caught up” here are those which are used to translate to “rapture”…Harpazo: to seize or catch up or away.

In these verse, the most heavily relied upon to argue in favor for a rapture… we do not actually read anything which states that a pre-tribulation rapture is what is being described here.

What is being described in the return of Messiah, the resurrection of the dead who belong to Him, and the transformation of mortal bodies of believers into incorruptible bodies.

If those bodies are then brought up to meet Messiah and fellow saints “in the clouds”… is that to be taken to mean they are “transported to heaven”?

Do we normally Truly view the location of Elohim’s throne and the abode of angels as the cloudy atmosphere of Earth?

The timing of what is described here is not clearly mentioned… however if one continues reading past these verses we see:

“But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I should write to you for you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Master so comes as a thief in the night.

For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant woman and they shall not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should overtake you as a thief.

You are all sons of light and sons of the day.

We are not of the night nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep as others, but let us watch and be sober.”

- 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-6

Here is a pointed warning to be watchful and sober, but the warning is not be watchful for an impending rapture… but the chaotic events of the tribulation.

It would be reasonable to be watchful for those things… observable events which would prelude a return of Messiah. How can one, after all, be watchful for an event which is by definition sudden and without warning, preceding any tribulation, such as the rapture would be.

“For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left.

Two grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other left.

Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming.

But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

- Matthew 24:38-44

Here, it is often said is a description of rapture… “one taken… the other left”.

Is this realistically a portrait of a favorable event for those who are “taken” though? “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

If this is the comparison… then we cannot surely say that these who were swept away in the flood were met with favorable circumstances.

Further, the description goes on to make a comparison to a master of a house which is “broken into” by a thief… again, not a favorable outcome for the master of the house.

Other verses referred to in support of a pre-tribulation rapture event are those which mention the transformation of the mortal body into the incorruptible form:

“As the man of dust, so also those of dust, and as is the celestial, so also those celestial.

And as we have borne the image of the dust, we shall also bear the image of the celestial.

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Yahuwah nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold! I tell you a mystery! We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.”

- 1 Corinthians 15: 48-52

Certainly, there is no room for denial in scripture that there will be a bodily transformation of living believers at the coming of Messiah, or that those who have died in Him will be raised, likewise, incorruptible.

No mention is ever attached to references of this event preceding tribulation on Earth, or that there are appearances of Messiah prior to His final judgment before the millennial reign, though.

With the publication of a series of popular Christian books called “Left Behind”, the belief in a doctrine of rapture saw a manifold increase.

These books covered a fictional account of future prophetic fulfillment on the subject of the end times. The lengthy story begins with pre-tribulation rapture events wherein multitudes of believers all over the world are suddenly and inexplicably missing.

Unbelievers who have been left behind have only the recollection of what their missing loved ones told them of the rapture to come to a conclusion about what has happened. As a result, many become saved, accepting, finally,what the missing believers had told them.

Apart from making the doctrine of rapture a central theme to the story, Left Behind also strongly relies on a position of staunch political Zionism to interpret the fulfillment of end times prophecy.

Many Christians who have never attempted to read the entire Bible have, nonetheless, read these books. As a result, multitudes of spiritually immature believers have come to treat these fictional stories as if they were prophecy themselves.

It might be prudent to give the benefit of the doubt to the authors of these books, Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, as having ‘done their best’ and with no intention to skew the perception of the millions of Christians and non-Christians who read them… but for the very questionable background of one of the authors in particular.

Tim LaHaye, an evangelical minister founded an organization known as the Council for National Policy of CNP.

This organization, upon hearing the basic description provided by the same, sounds at once like one which is dedicated to everything Christian values can be said to be.

There is, however, a very familiar air to the workings of the group, which not only mirror the sort of secretive, “behind closed doors” operations that we have come to expect of Masonic societies and government agencies, but have been branded the conservative counterpart to the Council on Foreign Relations.

The CFR, as many of us are well aware, is an extremely exclusive think tank of globalist elites who attempt to steer the nations policies toward a one world governement.

It is not at all unlike the controllers to put forth two sides of every issue and to control them both… this has been a very long standing game plan of theirs and can be seen in action in the two main political parties, ‘left’ and ‘right’ controlled media… etc.

It is far more efficient to their goals to provide at least two camps for the public to choose from and adhere to, rather than one, obvious target which can be easily seen for what it is and countered.

The wealthiest and most powerful conservatives in the country belong to the CNP.

The membership list is not made public and admission to the group is by invitation only… much like the CFR and Bohemian Grove. No guests are permitted, except by unanimous approval of the executives of the organization.

No matter their supposed “reasons”… we must seriously question any organization which conducts their business apart from the scrutiny of the public and which is geared toward being a serious influence on the governing of the country. This behavior is directly contrary to any notion of “We The People”.

Aside from secrecy… Tim LaHaye’s organization has gladly received million of dollars of funding from none other than Rev. Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Unification Church… for those not familiar with Reverend Moon, he ascribes to himself a status of being messiah himself.

No true believer in Yahushua would ever accept a position of affiliation or receive support from someone who literally took on themselves the title of a pseudo messianic figure.

With these things in mind, it is reasonable to question the true intention of the publication of the Left Behind series which have so “enraptured” so many believers.

With such strong political and anti-Christian ties… might we not wonder if these books were published precisely for the purpose of misleading Christians about what can and should be expected in true fulfillment of end times prophecy?

It is always… without fail… a 100% error to lean on the understanding of men instead of seeking the truth of His word directly.

How many have and will fall victim to an end times deception which includes erroneous expectation of pre-tribulation rapture?

Among many pieces of the puzzle which are falling into place in these days is a very serious trend toward a belief and interest in extraterrestrials, and much of this recent excitement on the matter is focused on a spiritually benevolent aspect of alien visitation.

We should also not allow ourselves to be unaware that mankind possesses technology capable of both projecting realistic images in sky, and realistic synthesized emotion and vocal messages directly to human brains.

If it seems somehow highly unlikely that all these things are the present contributors to a future “strong delusion”… then perhaps that disbelief makes an excellent foundation for just that.

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.

And for this reason Yahuwah will send them strong delusion that they should believe the lie,”

- 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

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22 Responses to “On the Rapture: Let’s Not Get Carried Away”

  1. Once again a great and divinely inspired article Cyprium.

    Edward Irving was Jesuit, afaik, which is yet another indicator that the pre-trib rapture is a satanic deception.

    Yes, the love to the Truth…. it is all about that, ever. In the whole pursuit of righteous life. In understanding the onion-layers of deception on which this world is built.
    Those souls who don’t love Yah’shua, called Truth, are already lost from the beginning..
    but why does God himself send the strong delusion?

  2. Ah btw, in Revelation is shown the timing of the resurrection of the dead, and it is NOT before some tribulations, but rather when the judgement occurs.

    • Hello Follower…

      It’s amazing to me how difficult of a topic this is to discuss with those who firmly believe in a pre-trib rapture. It’s my hope believers will stop reading isolated verses with the preconceived interpretations handed to them by church leaders and begin simply reading the bible for what it says.

      I believe He sends strong delusion Himself because the world is given so many clear evidences and warnings up to that point which are sufficient to get anyone’s attention who is really willing to belong to Him. At the point He sends strong dellusion, those who are overcome by it, have in essence, already chosen delusion for themselves.

      Peace and Blessings in Yahushua

      Cyprium

  3. Super interesting blog here! Wondering if you are familiar with the following Google articles that I ran into not long ago – “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “The Newest Pretrib Calendar,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.” Cammy

    • Hello Cammy…

      Glad you enjoy the site… I don’t recall coming across any of the articles you mentioned there, but i’ll look them up and check them out.

      Peace in Yahushua

      Cyprium

  4. Hailey Says:

    As it is written and WE CAN BE SURE OF THIS:

    NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST UNTIL THE END….

    “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man,
    and ye shall NOT SEE IT.” – (LUKE 17:22)

    AND AGAIN WE ARE WARNED OF FALSE DOCTRINES

    (LIKE THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE)

    “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE.

    Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

    -MATTHEW 24:23-27

    HE WILL COME TO SAVE US AFTER THE TRIBULATION AND RIGHT BEFORE EVERYTHING IS DESTROYED:

    IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    And THEN SHALL APPEAR the sign of THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    - MATTHEW 24:29-31

    WE SHALL BE CHANGED TO THAT WHICH WE KNOW NOT, AS OF YET:

    “Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
    and it DOTH NOT YET APPEAR WHAT WE SHALL BE: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    0.-1 JOHN 3:2

    THE FOLLOWING WORDS OF JESUS, WERE NOT POETICAL LANGUAGE WHICH JESUS SPOKE – BUT LITERAL……

    FOR AT THAT MOMENT – THE 1ST CREATION OF GOD WILL BE DESTROYED:

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”

    -MATTHEW 24:35

    AND SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THAT GOD ENTRUSTED AND EMPOWERED HIS SON, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, TO CREATE, WILL TAKE IT’S PLACE IN THE HEAVENLY REALM, ON THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH:

    THIS IS REPEATED, OVER AND OVER AND OVER:

    And they that use this world, as not abusing it:
    for THE FASHION OF THIS WORLD PASSETH AWAY.”
    1 Corinthians 7:29-31

    PLEASE READ THESE VERSES VERY CAREFULLY…..

    “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
    Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    And this [word], yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
    For our God is a consuming fire.”

    -Hebrews 12:25-29

    “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
    THEY SHALL PERISH,

    but thou shalt endure:

    yea, ALL OF THEM shall wax old like a garment;

    AS A VESTURE SHALT THOU CHANGE THEM, and THEY SHALL BE CHANGED:

    But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
    The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.”

    -Psalm 102:25-28

    “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

    -Hebrew 1:10-12

    “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
    For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
    Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
    And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens
    shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
    For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”

    -Isaiah 34:1-5

    “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

    -Revelation 6:12-17

    “Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
    And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
    The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
    The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it;
    and it shall fall, and NOT RISE AGAIN.

    And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
    And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
    Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

    -Isaiah 24:17-23

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
    in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    Seeing then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

    -2 Peter 3:10-13

    • Hello Hailey…

      “HE WILL COME TO SAVE US AFTER THE TRIBULATION AND RIGHT BEFORE EVERYTHING IS DESTROYED:”

      Yes..i agree entirely… thank you for posting the verses.

      Peace in Yahushua

      Cyprium

  5. Luke 21:36 says, Watch and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (the tribulation) and to stand before the Son of Man. I believe this verse is an obvious reference to a pre-trib rapture especially since the Son of Man is in heaven opening the seals at Rev 6, beginning the 7 year trib period.

    John 14:1-3 says,…. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. In these verses Jesus is talking about coming back again to take us to heaven to be with Him in His Father’s house. This is no reference to the second coming as Rev 19 indicates.

    Dr. Renald Showers – The Rapture and Second Coming Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZKBbrUDAx8

    • Hello, Neo…

      I think that in determining what is “obviously” stated in scripture, we need to use the same objectivity of comprehension that we would if being told this in person, or when we read a piece of journalism.

      Words like “it” and “things” always refer back to something…or else it is ambiguous and therefor not obvious. I don’t believe our Creator meant to be ambiguous about scripture and so i trust there is a subject matter that “all these things” relates to which is plainly mentioned.

      (Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. )

      Going back in the context of the verse, it begins with a set of phenomena which are to occur in the end times. From Luke 21:20 to Luke 21:27 is that progression of events culminating in the return of Messiah….but none of them are the things that “all these things” of Luke 21:36 describes. How do we know? Because the chronology of the events contradicts it.

      First, believers see “false christs” appear…
      Then wars and international distress (but the end is not yet)…
      Then persecution of believers, including imprisonment and death
      Then earthquakes, pestilence,famine and fearful signs in the heavens…
      Then the desolation of Jerusalem
      Signs in sun, moon and stars, perplexity of nations…proceeding simultaneously
      (All this has happened and believers are still there)
      NOW…“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

      Believers are not escaping persecution or famines or earthquakes or plagues or any of the fearful signs in heaven, but will see them and know that Messiah’s return is near.

      So what are all these things that we should pray to be worthy to escape?

      “And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.

      For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.”- Luke 21:34,35

      Haven’t many believers already been ensnared by these things, so that the signs of these times go unnoticed by them and they no longer are looking and waiting for the return of their Savior?

      It is not a matter of salvation if we are incorrect in our perception of a rapture but it concerns me that many who do believe in a rapture do so based on a fear of what this world could throw at them in the last days and perhaps also subtly includes the notion that those who suffer are rejected by Him. Suffering has been the furnace in which He has refined much gold and perhaps we should not shy away from the difficult challenges to our faith that may come.

      Peace in Yahushua

      • I hold my pre-trib position based upon what I believe scripture reveals regarding the rapture. If you’re going to accuse me of escapism for my views then I should accuse you of being a sadist for yours since most Christians will be long dead before the Second Coming.

        “Haven’t many believers already been ensnared by these things, so that the signs of these times go unnoticed by them and they no longer are looking and waiting for the return of their Savior?”

        If you’re certain about your post trib stance then it’s not Jesus you want to watch for, it’s the antichrist. In fact, you wont even have to start looking up until you’ve counted 1260 days from the time the abomination that causes desolation takes place.

        Agreed that either view will get you to the same place in the end but imo you just have to ignore too many scriptures to hold a mid or post trib rapture belief.

        Maranatha!

        • “I hold my pre-trib position based upon what I believe scripture reveals regarding the rapture. If you’re going to accuse me of escapism for my views then I should accuse you of being a sadist for yours since most Christians will be long dead before the Second Coming. “

          I wasn’t intending to accuse you, personally of escapism (i don’t know you and can’t make that personal judgment) but, when we teach this theory to new believers, it perhaps has an appeal to those who’s faith is not yet such that they feel able to face something like persecution unto death.

          I could only qualify as a sadist if i were inclined to be the one to torture and execute believers or relished the idea. I certainly do prefer the idea of all believers escaping all of that…but my goal has to be accepting evidence of the truth rather than what my preferences are.

          I think it would be error to see the suffering of believers as any kind of sadism, since, without referring to the tribulation at all, there are many times our Father has allowed His name to be glorified through the suffering of believers. He isn’t a sadist, certainly…yet He did allow Job to suffer, He did allow Daniel to be persecuted, He did allow a man to live half of his life blind in order to show His healing… and He allowed countless Christians in the early church to die for His name’s sake.

          I’m not sure there’s anything biblical which contradicts the idea that most Christians will die during the persecution. A remnant is what He talks about. In the end, we’re no worse off are we? The dead in Him will receive their incorruptible bodies and live eternally.

          “If you’re certain about your post trib stance then it’s not Jesus you want to watch for, it’s the antichrist.”

          Everything that scripture states in plain terms on the matter puts the return of Messiah after the reign of antichrist. I don’t see any really convincing evidence in scripture alone that states He will come twice in the last days.

          Perhaps we won’t see eye to eye on this until He comes back, but how about we sit down and discuss it then? :)

          Peace in Yahushua

  6. I would appreciate a discussion on the timing of the rapture and accept your offer. Let’s see what we can uncover!

    First, let me make clear that I don’t believe the rapture and the second coming is the same event. I think the rapture will happen first, then the seven year tribulation period and then the second coming will occur.

    There are no verses that I’m aware of that explicitly state when the rapture will occur. However, I believe a pre-trib rapture is revealed to us implicitly in the Bible, not just because of key verses (Luke 21:36; John 14:1-3; Rev 3:10, etc) but due to the very character of God. In my opinion, whenever God pours out His wrath He seems to prefer getting believers out of the way first. The stories of Noah and Sodom & Gomorrah would indicate this and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 affirms we are not appointed unto wrath. When does God’s wrath begin? I believe it obviously begins in Revelation 6.

    “I’m not sure there’s anything biblical which contradicts the idea that most Christians will die during the persecution. A remnant is what He talks about. In the end, we’re no worse off are we? The dead in Him will receive their incorruptible bodies and live eternally.”

    There is nothing in scripture that would indicate to me that Christian persecution and tribulation, familiar to all believers through the ages, can logically be compared to the future seven year event known as “the tribulation”. And, if there is any question as to whether it is God’s wrath being poured out in Revelation 6, one only has to ask, who is breaking the seals and what is happening?

    Happy Easter

  7. “The origin of the doctrine of the rapture… (note: the origin of the Doctrine, not the Word) dates back only to around the early 1700′s. It was supported and preached by Cotton Mather who is also notable as being an integral participant in the Salem Witch Trials.”

    There may be evidence that an early Church father named Clement wrote about the doctrine of the rapture in an epistle to the Corinthians he drafted in either 68 or 97 AD – less than 70 years after Christ’s death. And then there’s Epharaem the Syrian who said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Since most people before the 1800′s probably didn’t even own a copy of the Bible should we expect too much from history? But, there are more writings dating back earlier than the 1700′s if you care to scour the net.

    Matthew 24:38-44….
    These verses are not about the rapture, at least not for believers. The ones taken here are obviously unbelievers as Luke 17:35-37 further illustrates. The unbelievers are taken (and killed) while the believers are left on the earth to populate the millennial kingdom. In my opinion the rapture happens before the events of Matthew are even rolled out.

    Question: Let’s say, hypothetically, that the rapture does happen at the second coming. At Christ’s return, if all unbelievers are killed and all believers are raptured, who then will repopulate the earth in the millennial kingdom, since raptured believers don’t marry or reproduce?

    Maranatha!

  8. John 14 says,…1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    This is Jesus clearly talking about a time in the future when He will come to “receive” us and take us to heaven to be with Him! If there is no rapture until the second coming then what do you do with these verses?

  9. Luke 21:36 says,…Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Jesus is clearly telling believers in this verse that they can avoid the tribulation period all together and be with Him in heaven.

    Revelation 3:10 says,… Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Again Jesus hints at a pre-trib rapture in this verse, by keeping us from the very hour of temptation, or literally, the time of tribulation.

    • Hello Neo…

      “There are no verses that I’m aware of that explicitly state when the rapture will occur. However, I believe a pre-trib rapture is revealed to us implicitly in the Bible, not just because of key verses..”

      That fact has me asking why Messiah would choose ambiguity here. What is the reason for not clearly stating “I Will return prior to my reign to collect you and spare you from the tribulation”? Are there any other vitally important pieces of information which He has left us to “figure out”?

      “but due to the very character of God. In my opinion, whenever God pours out His wrath He seems to prefer getting believers out of the way first.”

      As you clarified that you believe the rapture and second coming are two separate events, let me also clarify that i do not consider the events during the tribulation to be his Wrath. The catastrophic events of the tribulation will be a culmination of disasters brought on by the enemy and by the Beast system which He will allow to take place. His wrath will be the point at which He takes control of the situation and “cleans up” the wicked at the end of that tribulation period. I would not expect Him to allow mortal believers to be present on the earth at that point, but temporarily taken out of the way while the earth is purged.

      We might argue whether or not YHWH is who is bringing the catastrophic things of the tribulation to pass by virtue of the fact that seals are opened to allow it to occur but…we also know that nothing under the sun happens without His allowance. As He allowed Satan to persecute Job, we could also ask there “who persecuted Job if He allowed it?” He allows all things that are ultimately for the good of those who love Him (whether we understand it as a blessing at the time or not.)

      I think there is nothing that a mortal human could suffer in the tribulation that he could never suffer in the past….but this is now a world of complacency. How many believers now live as if their faith could call for their death? Is dying in a tribulation genocide worse than being burned at the stake three centuries ago?

      “There may be evidence that an early Church father named Clement wrote about the doctrine of the rapture in an epistle to the Corinthians he drafted in either 68 or 97 AD – less than 70 years after Christ’s death.”

      I can’t say with authority whether or not Clement believed in a pre tribulation rapture or ever taught any doctrine like it as there seems to be little to go on either way. I can say that i would remain extremely wary of Clement for the fact that he was invested in Gnosticism and the mystery religions which he was raised in.

      “Epharaem the Syrian who said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

      The quote you mention is actually a partial excerpt out of a document called “Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem”, and was neither written by Ephraem nor at the time of his life. There are more than one document named this, written in different languages, one being Latin and that is the one which allegedly contains the above quote. If the belief, if not the name of the doctrine, was widely believed from the start of Christianity…i would expect it to dominate Christian writings of antiquity on the end times, rather than be obscurely referenced in a pseudographical text of unknown date.

      “Let’s say, hypothetically, that the rapture does happen at the second coming. At Christ’s return, if all unbelievers are killed and all believers are raptured, who then will repopulate the earth in the millennial kingdom, since raptured believers don’t marry or reproduce?”

      I do not equate rapture with transformation of the body, because i do not see the rapture as a permanent removal into a heavenly abode, but a quick removal followed by returning the raptured individuals to the earth where Messiah will reign. The believer must inherit an immortal body before entering eternity at the close of the Millennial Kingdom, but before this, both birth and death persist on earth for those believers who survived the tribulation.

      “John 14 says,…1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

      This is Jesus clearly talking about a time in the future when He will come to “receive” us and take us to heaven to be with Him! If there is no rapture until the second coming then what do you do with these verses?”

      “That where I am, there you may be also” Where is Messiah? I would venture to say that this is the New Jerusalem which is currently not on earth but will come down to the New Earth. I do not see the eternal abode of believers as “heaven”, but a New Earth.

      “Luke 21:36 says,…Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
      Jesus is clearly telling believers in this verse that they can avoid the tribulation period all together and be with Him in heaven.”

      I addressed that verse and others int he chapter in my first reply to you. You may find it above dated for 3/24/2013 under your original post.

      “Revelation 3:10 says,… Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

      This verse was addressed to a specific group of people…namely the church of Philadelphia. While there may be quite a bit of interpretation by church leaders that make this refer to all believers as a whole…that definition of the church of Philadelphia is speculative at best and scripture never plainly states that the address to the churches are a metaphor of any kind.

      I may have done more replying today than i ever have in one day…lol. I don’t generally relish debate, as i tend to see that it becomes a contest of arguments and therefor more about our own knowledge than finding an answer. I took the time because i believe that you really have looked for truth ( i’ve seen your site)…and i hope that you can believe that i have too, even if we never agree on this topic in this age. We’re all wrong about something. :)

      Peace in Yahushua

  10. Thanks for replying friend. I appreciate your points of view even though I disagree.

    God bless

  11. I think the last thing you or I want is a debate, or worse, a contentious debate. However, in the back of my mind, the questions linger… When will our Lord come? Are we approaching the most horrific time in all of human history? What should I do, focus on Jesus while urging everyone to be spiritually ready for the rapture or should my family and I make every possible preparation to somehow endure the seven year period of time that will see most people to their graves. To fly or die,… that is the question… What does our Lord say to do? God’s Word is constantly urging us,… “watch”, “don’t let anyone deceive you”, “stay sober”, “pray”, etc. Seven years is a long time and it boggles my mind why there is not any instruction in the Bible to the church on how to live in and endure this extremely difficult period of time. Is it because the church has been raptured or murdered? Is Jesus going to break the seals that would unleash every conceivable hardship and suffering on His bride?! Who is the tribulation for anyway? Why the parable of the ten virgins? Is the rapture an event that takes place prior to all this mess or not? What is the truth and why isn’t it clear to all of us? I long for God, I long to get out of this fish bowl and to be where He is! I know the general answer is to be ready for Him, in season and out of season. But, aren’t the apparent contradictions in scripture concerning the timing of the “catching away”, in relation to the second coming, a challenge to dig deeper?

    Correct me if I’m wrong but I think we can agree that the Word of God is a living document. All people who seek to know God and His will and desire His appearing and to understand the events surrounding the time of the end, etc. can at any point in human history, where the Bible is available, pick it up, look at it and find instructions pertaining to them, in their place in time. I think we have to keep this in mind when interpreting scriptures especially those verses pertaining to the times just prior to and during the tribulation. (I don’t mean for any of this to sound condescending)

    Revelation 3:10 says,… Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Your response was… “This verse was addressed to a specific group of people…namely the church of Philadelphia. While there may be quite a bit of interpretation by church leaders that make this refer to all believers as a whole…that definition of the church of Philadelphia is speculative at best and scripture never plainly states that the address to the churches are a metaphor of any kind.”

    I believe we are forced to conclude that Jesus was referring to a church that would be around just prior to “the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world”. Otherwise, why would Jesus make this statement to the people of the church of Philadelphia knowing full well they would all be dead long before that hour occurred? The church of Philadelphia must then be our Lord’s model to future believers who desire to be kept from this “hour”.

    Matthew 24:44 says,… Therefore be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    The Bible also reveals that in the middle of the tribulation the Antichrist will sit in the Temple of God and declare himself to be God; from this point we know to count 1260 days and then the tribulation will be over and the Messiah will come.

    Why does the Lord tell us to be ready, and that He will come at an hour we think not if He was speaking about His second coming? Do you see the conflict? If we were enduring the tribulation wouldn’t we literally be counting the days? And yet He says to be ready in verse 44 because He comes in an hour we think not.

    Hey I really like your site and though I’ve only read a few of your articles, I plan to read many more – they are very interesting. From what I’ve read so far you are highly insightful and analytical, that’s why I had to respond to your article here. I guess I was disappointed and expected more from you on this particular topic :(

    Anyways, you are right, we’re all wrong about something. I know I could be wrong, I just wanted to prove it.

    • Hello Neo…

      I’d be happy to try to address those things…i think your questions are honest ones.

      “When will our Lord come?”

      That’s a question that none know the answer to but the Father. Messiah gave us signs to look for to now that these days are approaching, but His return will come suddenly in a day and hour that we don’t know.

      “Are we approaching the most horrific time in all of human history?”

      Looking at the world around us and seeing how it has decayed exponentially in just the last 10 years, it looks very much as if we are fast approaching the tribulation era. While man is pushing their limits of playing god, there is nothing in this world that will change the tide of what we see. Only Messiah can fix this now. In many areas, i have already seen things that have surpassed all of history in their horrific magnitude.

      “What should I do, focus on Jesus while urging everyone to be spiritually ready for the rapture or should my family and I make every possible preparation to somehow endure the seven year period of time that will see most people to their graves.”

      When i contemplate the next few years, i expect some very world changing events. I expect tyrannical actions of governments, crimes against humanity and an onslaught of “signs and wonders” produced by the enemy to deceive us.

      I think that Father has a plan mapped out for each of us who might be here to see some or all of those days. He has a purpose for us all. That purpose, as a whole, is not very different from what we have been called to do all along but at such a dire point in time, it is All That Matters. It is to be the hands of Messiah, reaching out to whoever we can help, the feet of Messiah, taking His message, like the saving medicine it is, to the masses who are in danger of eternal death. Doing all this with courage in the face of the most severe opposition because the goal is not to preserve one’s own mortal life, but to run that race for the glory of our King.

      “What does our Lord say to do? God’s Word is constantly urging us,… “watch”, “don’t let anyone deceive you”, “stay sober”, “pray”, etc. Seven years is a long time and it boggles my mind why there is not any instruction in the Bible to the church on how to live in and endure this extremely difficult period of time.”

      The way i would define the tribulation is: The World on Steroids. Every evil that the world system has been since the fall of mankind and every evil that the fallen powers of heaven have worked here through mankind will reach a fever point. It will all culminate in seven intense years that will force each and every one of us to get off of our fences and stand on one side or the other before all heaven and earth.

      Yes, it does sound daunting…it sounds like a long and horrible seven years, but…let’s be objective in our perspective. That’s 7 years versus an eternity. It’s a second of suffering and an endless lifetime of blessed peace. We were worth the death of Messiah to our Creator….what is the Life that He purchased for us worth to us?

      The tribulation is not just YHWH being angry and mean…it is the refining of lambs into lions so that we may be His voice to shout the last desperate plea to a lost world. As frightening as this future sounds, it is also His mercy in action.

      How we endure is to trust Him. That is so easily said and not done in this day and age. We all need to look at what we trust to preserve our lives while we sit in comfort and have “options”, because there might come a time when we don’t have options..when He is not our last hope, but our Only hope. If we find it difficult to ask Him to heal the pain of a headache now…how will we trust for food and shelter if it becomes scarce? Now, i believe, is the time to get our faith trained like a warrior’s should be.

      I believe He has told us many times in scripture how to handle the extremes that this world can throw at a believer. The message to the lost, in scripture, is “Yahushua is Life”, and the message to the believer is “Endure Til The End”. That’s what He says, time and time again….Stand For Me, Don’t Fear Them, Don’t Compromise, Don’t Give Up, Don’t Lay Down, Don’t Sell Out. Run The Race…..Endure Til the End.

      For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.

      But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

      And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

      But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

      Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

      And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

      - Mark 13:8-13

      —————————————–

      Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

      What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.

      And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

      Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

      But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

      Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

      - Matthew 10: 26-31

      ——————————————————–

      Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

      But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

      If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

      - 1Peter 4:12-14

      ———————————————————-

      Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

      Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

      And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

      Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

      And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

      Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

      - Ephesians 6:13-18

      ———————————————————–

      And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

      For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

      - Romans 8:18,19

      I long to get out of this world and be with Him too…i think we all do who grieve with Him at the state of this fallen place. He has a purpose though, for His timing and for us. He will come and that day will be all the more blessed for the eyes that live to see it.

      Yes, i do believe that scripture speaks to all of us wherever we are, whenever we are. Do we always listen the first time? lol…no..probably not. I don’t think i very often listened the first time He tried to let me know something. We are creatures who are moved by our own feelings, wants, needs…we are all biased. It’s the hardest thing i ever did, to reject subjectivity and try to hear nothing but Him.

      “Revelation 3:10 says,… Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

      If we are to take this as referencing the whole body of believers and not just a small group thereof we should note that He speaks of…”the hour of temptation”…not the “hour of suffering”. We will be preserved from falling to the hour of temptation.

      “The Bible also reveals that in the middle of the tribulation the Antichrist will sit in the Temple of God and declare himself to be God; from this point we know to count 1260 days and then the tribulation will be over and the Messiah will come.”

      This, maybe goes on into another topic but, i have my questions about the usual interpretation of the antichrist being in a third temple. I am not at all sure we could call a third temple Holy in the least…but that might not be applicable to this question.

      This, i think, is applicable…

      “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. ” – Matthew 24:22

      So..perhaps we could not accurately count the days. We might know it will be sometime between this point and that point but not the day and hour.

      It also occurs to me that perhaps the normal methods by which one could tell time will not be available. If the Sun and moon are effected, we won’t see celestial evidence of 24 hour days passing, possibly. If there is no electricity…no clocks..if there are electromagnetic pulse events, computer time keeping and battery operated time keeping might also fail. And yes, we might be lied to and our perception of time (when time most matters to the enemy) is deceived.

      I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the site and i’m sorry for any disappointment, but i truly have tried to look at this separate from what i’d really like to think. At, first, it was not a comfortable feeling but since then He has allowed me to experience a resolve that is beyond me to experience. I do not consider the future a point of dread any longer…i consider it an opportunity to let His light shine in darkness.

      I don’t think i can prove to you what view i stand on nor perhaps can anyone prove to anyone else anything that is naturally a spiritual matter…He has to do that in us all. Where we are wrong, He will correct us when we want to be corrected. The odds are against any two believers being at exactly the same place in all topics, so we simply have to try to stay humble and loving toward our brethren as we, ourselves desire from others and let Him do more of the talking.

      Whether or not you consider that we may be going through that seven year period, this is still a world of increasing challenges. So be of good courage, brother…Rak Chazak! ;)

  12. Amen brother… Rak Chazak!

  13. sabina Says:

    Hello,
    YAHUSHUA is coming again for his Bride!
    You can read prophecies about that here: http://www.almightywind.com
    I believe he is returning on Shabbat, Rosh Hashanah
    It is important to observe the real Shabat-Friday sunset to Saturday sunset
    RC church changed the real Shabbat into Sunday

    • hopeful_watcher Says:

      I find the argument that we physically removed from the earth in order to be shielded from GOd’s wrath to support a pretrib rapture to be disengenuous. Both Noah and Lot were directed in a manner to avoid God’s wrath. Noah was in an ark, but he was still on the earth while the floods came. The very concept of Passover reveals a means to protect oneself with the blood of the lamb from God’s wrath, but they were present to witness. Why would we think the coming of God’s wrath to be any different, when everything in the bible points to being shielded from God’s wrath compared to being removed from God’s wrath?

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